Matt Graybill is the Executive Pastor of South Bend City Church (SBCC), a self-described “Jesus-centered community for believers, doubters, and everyone in between.” On Sunday, August 11, the Ansari Institute hosted the final lunch and conversations of their Fall 2024 South Bend Immersion Experience.
Matt Graybill joined the SBCC team in November 2018, building on past experiences as a community life pastor, a membership pastor and a campus pastor in other Christian church settings. He has a bachelor’s degree from East Stroudsburg University of Pennsylvania, a master’s in educational administration from Temple University, and a certificate from the Pastoral Leadership Program (Communitas) at Pepperdine University.
In November of 2022, Graybill joined a group from South Bend City Church on an immersion to the Holy Land organized by The Telos Group. At their invitation he returned in May 2024 as part of the Christ at the Checkpoint conference. It was on this second trip that he had the chance to revisit some of the individuals he had met in 2022 and to witness firsthand the devastating affects of the aftermath of October 7th.
Over zoom, Graybill sat down with Rebekah Go, the Ansari Institute’s Program and Communication Manager and a regular attendee of South Bend City Church, to talk about the trip and his hopes for the South Bend Immersion Experience.
This is your second trip within the last few years to the Holy Land through a partnership between South Bend City Church and Telos. Can you give me a brief overview of this partnership with Telos and the purpose of these two trips you have participated in?
The Telos Group is an organization that brings peacemakers together both abroad and here in the States. They have stepped into areas divided by conflict and committed to the mutual flourishing of all people. We have partnered with them by participating in peacemaking pilgrimages, supporting the work that they do, and learning the principles and practices of peacemaking they guide people through. The partnership extends beyond finances. They are creating resources that have really helped our community and likewise, we are creating resources that are helping them as an organization as they work with other churches.
Two years ago we took a group from our church to the Holy Land with Telos. It was a learning experience, different from some typical church trips. We were not painting things or building things or doing some type of camp. We were sitting down with people and hearing their stories - some who have been on that land for generations. We were hearing their perspectives, the history, the tensions, and their viewpoints. My eyes were opened deeply to not only the land that existed during the time of Jesus - though it was great to walk through some of those historical contexts - but to see that this place has a lot of meaning for a variety of people, a variety of faiths, and to hear their stories was really powerful.
We weren't able to go into Gaza on the trip two years ago. We were right on the wall. We were in Sderot, which was one of the communities that was attacked on October 7 where they broke through the wall. We were there and met with an Israeli Jewish peacemaker who's now been relocated out of her home and has some horrific stories. We weren't in Gaza but we did go to a number of Palestinian refugee camps in the West Bank.
However, this trip I just came back from in May was a different kind of trip. It was more of a solidarity trip rather than a deep dive into particular issues: more just to mourn with those who mourn and listen to somebody's story, and sit across from someone and say, “I see you and I hear you and I'm so sorry.” That was the nature of this particular trip. So I was really grateful that I was there two years ago because I met with some of the same people that I met with then and – while it was really great to see them again – it was also really difficult to see what can happen in just two years and how it changed their world.
Growing up I was always hearing about the Holy Land, at least in the church settings that I was in. I always felt like if I could be in the place where Jesus walked, it would be pretty special, right? But meeting with Israelis and Palestinians, and hearing from them about the work that they do of peacemaking and sharing both sides of the story - that was really special. I just didn't understand. I knew that there was conflict, but I don't think I fully understood the history. So, while it's still interesting to be on the boat in the sea of Galilee where Jesus was, it was more of an honor and a blessing to actually meet with people that are in the land today and hear their stories.
I was also motivated as a pastor. I've always had the conviction that you can go halfway around the world and have your eyes opened to a global perspective but then also realize some of these same things happen in our own backyard, in our own cities and communities. Because once you start to see and once you start to open up your mind and become curious, you can't unknow and you can't unsee. It starts to make you a little bit wiser towards some of the needs or issues that are around you.
Some particular Evangelical traditions - particularly in the US context - have a theology of Israel, Jerusalem, and the end times that influences their view of US politics. Can you help us to understand that?
Yeah, I'll do my best. There's a lot of layers here. It's often referred to as Christian Zionism and what's interesting is that some of that ideology or theology actually didn't start becoming more apparent until the mid 1900s. It actually came out of Europe where you had Jews being persecuted.
So there's a dispensationalist view where it looks at where God showed up in this period, then in this period, then in this period, and then in this period - and they look at this all the way to the end times. Then there are some that read the Scriptures and say, in order for Jesus to come back at the end times, the Jews need to go back to their land. So Christian Zionism was really pushed in the early to mid 1900s – I'm probably oversimplifying this – but to make a case for actually moving Jews into another place from where they were. It was a political idea laced with a theology taking Scripture passages of God saying, “'I’ll give you the Promised Land. We'll bless this land and bless Israel! Bless my people.”
My personal thought: I think you really need to look at the whole arc of the Bible. And if the whole arc is looking at Jesus, Jesus comes to fulfill the law and many of these promises. I would encourage anybody to do some reading and research on this. For me growing up I was told one narrative that was created from a viewpoint which – I didn't realize – had my attention focused on support for the Jews going into Israel. I think it's easy to take certain Scripture passages out of context and use them to your advantage. And it's really easy to say, “God said this about Israel and the Jews” but to not include that Jesus also gave the Sermon on the Mount which calls us to live a life of love and peacemaking. Or to include that Paul talked about, “there's no Jew, nor Greek, or Gentile, nor slave.” [Galatians 3:28]
The thing that stands out to me – and this is what kind of broke my heart for the second trip – is that before going I just put myself in a position of hearing from other pastors or leaders in the US and there's some strong viewpoints from Christian pastors that hold onto this Christian Zionist belief. And, while they have the right to hold on to that theology, it's problematic when it starts to oppress the Palestinian group in particular – to make way for their thoughts or their beliefs.
Being there you realize how there's things that are political, that are generational, there's historical narratives that are passed on, there's political ideologies, and then layered into that is theology – not just from Christianity, but Judaism and Islam. It's not just a “who got here first?” type of question. It's layered in how people understand the Scriptures - and that’s especially true in an evangelical world.
When you say you wanted to open yourself up to other perspectives in the US. How did you do that? Did you have conversations?
I had a few conversations with people that think a little bit differently than me and not just even Christians. I've met a number of Jews here in South Bend. Then on social media I listened to how pastors responded to this conflict or what happened on October 7th. It has really grieved me because if the center of the Gospel is Jesus, their cadence did not reflect the posture of Jesus. And then, what was especially tragic for me, was meeting with Palestinian Christians in the Holy Land who have heard those hurtful messages.
One of the things that I find challenging not just in this context, but in many contexts, is how we often “other” groups even as we try to come to the defense of one group. We tend to become less generous towards them in terms of why they think or how they think. So how do you, as a person of faith, maintain a posture of generosity towards both sides?
Yeah, that's really hard. It's really, really hard. It's really easy to throw stones at somebody that you don't know because you may have thoughts or assumptions. But to sit across from somebody or sit next to somebody and hear their story? I think if you're able to hear the heart behind it – while you might not agree with their decision-making process – you can understand their motivation or where something is coming from.
So to sit with an Israeli who lost a number of their family members and have others that are still held hostage and they had family members that were killed on October 7, to hear their perspective? I'm hearing the perspective as a fellow parent, as a person, and I can hear or see why they are responding the way they are. So I might not agree with all of the rhetoric, but it gives me some perspective.
It also gives perspective on how people deal with hurt and pain. Because especially in this last visit there were a number of peacemakers who said, “I refuse to be the victim" which I thought was really profound. They might have had family members that were Holocaust survivors and now they experience October 7th; or they are Palestinian and they're 3rd generation living in a refugee camp; or they've been pushed out of their their home or they've lost a family member to this conflict, and to say, “I refuse to be the victim.” I've really appreciated seeing how people have dealt with their hurt and pain.
That helps create a sense of generosity not only for me to do my own work with trauma or past pains but, to encourage other people to find a new way. As a former middle school teacher, when one kid would go off and slug another, I wouldn't say “Yeah, you can slug them back.” That's not helpful, right? I can understand why somebody wants to do that but this conflict is not going to be resolved by handling it in the same way it got here, right? It is going to take people to actually do the work of saying, “alright, I am hurt and I am angry but how can I process this? And how can we work together for mutual flourishing?” But in order to get there, you really need to understand the other and where they're coming from. That's not easy.
I also think you have to do it inside yourself before you start to have somebody else do it. I remember going to counseling with my wife and being like, “I hope this counselor tells her everything she needs to fix.” Then halfway through, “I'm like, wait a second, I'm the jerk.” And it was amazing how when I started to work on myself, it actually created empathy towards our relationship.
Sometimes it feels easier to empathize with people far, far away. But then we come back to the US which feels very divided in its own way and we don't necessarily empathize and/or we are not generous towards people with other viewpoints. How do you translate that empathy and generosity of spirit towards your work when you come home?
I think when you start to see the heart of people, you realize the same parts or the same hurts or the same thought process – while they might look different overseas – they're very similar to what we have here. So I think how people are responding to immigration or homelessness or race, if we really open our eyes and have an honest look, we have a lot of those same walls. They might not be physical walls like I saw in Israel and Palestine but, there are walls in our communities, in our cities, and in our families that have been erected, many times for generations.
I actually feel like there are a lot of walls that are getting higher here in the United States. There’s more divisiveness if we take an honest look. But sometimes we drive around the walls, or we have blinders on, or we just hang out with “our” people. Definitely in the age of social media it's really easy for people to make statements rather than have conversations and connections; and I think when you make a statement it might start to create “the other.” So for me, especially after this second trip, I feel a deep sense of grief for the work that we need to do in our communities, the work that we need to do in our churches, the work that we need to do in our neighborhoods because a lot of the same walls, while they're not so extreme, they're still here. And if you ignore it, the conflict just escalates.
The Church where you are Executive Pastor, South Bend City Church -- which incidentally is where I attend -- is deeply committed not only to the work of Telos internationally but also to the work of peacemaking locally. How have these international experiences shaped your perspective on the work of the Church locally?
Greatly. Greatly, is the short answer. The nature of the trip that we went on was learning and connecting. It's so easy to go on a church trip, especially as Americans, and feel like, “Oh, I have the answer and I'm gonna bring it to these people,” and a lot of times it's actually not even helpful! It actually creates more harm than good. So instead when you come in with a position of learning and curiosity and understanding, you're like, “Whoa!”
I remember when we were in Israel/Palestine and we were meeting with this Israeli settler. He had moved from New York City into the West Bank, an area that is really reserved for Palestinians. He had made his own way into this area and built a house, and was like, “nope, I have the right to live here.” So, when we were talking with him one of the things he said was, “well, those Palestinians, they just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.” And I looked at a Black member of our church community who was also present on this trip, and all of a sudden I saw that this is a message that she has heard all her life growing up. It's a different story here in the US, but actually there are a lot of similarities.
So coming back home, I think we want to take that same posture of learning and curiosity and history. We started to really look at the tensions that exist in South Bend. There's a number of them. There's racial tension that has existed for years. Redlining that has happened. Educational tensions. Tension in history that goes back to even the first occupiers of our land. Then, once we have listened, we feel like we can carry the principles of peacemaking into our community.
So we piloted an experience, a weekend cohort, based on our time in Israel and Palestine and we have called it the South Bend Immersion Experience. And we're going to continue it. So that groups of people will understand the history and really have their eyes opened, to meet with people, and hear their stories.
I just think for us, as a church that is for our city, this is where we need to open our eyes. We are not saying “you have to think a certain way” but just sit with somebody that looks different than you, that's had a different experience than you. Once you know, you can't unknow. Then, you have a responsibility to either share the story or help create a better way. And while it is easy to want to create a program and think this will solve the problems, it actually starts with people opening their eyes to some of the needs and tensions and things that are happening in the world.
In the Catholic tradition different orders like the Jesuits or the Dominican or Holy Cross have what they call their “charism.” Charism is like charisma. It is the animating spirit of their work and how they move through the world. So I'm curious. What would you say is the animating spirit that moves through South Bend City Church? What is SBCC’s “charism?”
Hmm. Here's what's coming to mind. What I see at South Bend City Church is a lot of people that have been hurt. They've been hurt by the churches that they used to attend because of their identity or because of their beliefs; they’ve been hurt by community or by family. So I think I see a spirit of acceptance and of love. People have said, “I came in and immediately felt like I belonged.” Or “I feel like I'm at home.” We hear that over and over and over again. Because when you've felt like you have been the “other” - or when you've felt pushed away - and you finally get to the point where you are able to welcome people, you do so with open arms. I think that's the spirit.
At South Bend City Church one of our mantras is “everyone an icon.” Everyone is created in the likeness of God and we should treat everybody we meet with profound dignity and honor and respect. And it is one thing to have that be a statement that you slap on a wall and it’s another thing to actually breathe it into the life of your community and I see our community living that spirit not just on Sunday but through the course of the week. And that is also one where you never fully arrive. There's always work to do.
How do you handle, as Executive Pastor, the desire of members of South Bend City Church to be the “justice church” or the “service church” or - I don't know - to be the Church in the many different ways that churches can show up in the world? How do you handle all that pressure and/or tension? And then where do you think you land after all that? It sounds exhausting.
It is actually exhausting. And it’s a good problem. Previous churches that I've been a part of were very black and white in their thinking. In order to be a part of their church, you need to “do this or this” or “in order to belong here you need to look like this and say these things,” right? It's actually way easier to lead at a black and white church because the lines are super clear. You're either in or you are out. This is what we are doing and this is what we are not doing.
South Bend City Church stays within a gray area that I would say is a lot like Jesus Himself. Jesus made the religious leaders and people of His day super frustrated because He wasn't toting the popular view, or the party line, or even doing what those who were supporting Him wanted Him to do. He thought a different way. He was grounded in who He was, the identity that He had. And I think for us as a church, that needs to be our guide.
I think there's a lot of churches that start to raise certain flags and say, “we are this flag.” but the moment we raise a flag it signals who is in or who is out. So even as a church there are members of our community who identify as LGBTQ who have been really, really hurt by the church and we want to welcome them with open arms. However, for us then as a church to swing the pendulum and say, “well, we should publicly blast all these conservative churches? That's not helpful, either.”
I just had somebody who was on the trip to Israel/Palestine with me reach out and say, “could you help me with a pastoral response? Some of my friends hold on to this viewpoint that God will bless you if you bless Israel. So how do I have a conversation with them?” And one of the first things I said was, “is this person willing to have a conversation or are they just wanting to argue with you?” Because I think if the person is interested in a real conversation, then they may be one tick away from a different mindset or different way of looking at things.
Even as a church we're pretty mindful of who we partner with because we have members of our community who identify as LGBTQ. We do not want to encourage people to volunteer with an organization where they would not be accepted; that would just be really hurtful. But as an organization, we're not writing off those other organizations either. We're trying to maintain relationships with them and recognize they're still doing really good work. Maybe they aren't affirming right now. But who knows? Maybe five years from now that's different. But if we totally cut off that relationship, then I think we're doing a disservice.
That's been true in my own life. The church that I was at previously and my position had me literally checking the boxes of who could be “in” or who could be “out.” Yet because there are people that walked alongside me and allowed me to process my questions and process not having all the answers, it actually allowed me to have more of an open mind and to be able to step into learnings and ideas that I would never have considered.
So it is exhausting, because we're not trying to say here's the path that everybody should take. It's coming from a value that allows people to wrestle with their own thoughts. So we say, we are a Jesus-centered community and we want to be a community of grace and peace for our city and the world. That is a deep rooted identity but it also creates a big bandwidth for how we show up in the world.
It actually reminds me a lot of being a parent, to be honest. If you're going to parent two kids the same way it is not going to work, right? Or if you are going to say this is the textbook on parenting and you need to follow it, that’s like “no.” Every age, every season of life, you have to evaluate. My wife and I constantly say each season has its own joys and challenges. And I think that the same is true for us as a church community, and the moment we just say, “well, we got it figured out,” we've lost. Because, we're all humans and we live in a broken world.
So that's probably the most non-answer, answer. I just think it's understanding who you are and then also understanding the context that you live in.